Dale Starkie interview
Tom Brown homage… Ph. Reece Leung
Watching Dale’s evolution from teenage-bricklayer-who-will-kickflip-off-anything to his current manifestation as an extremely committed and hard-working skater with a frighteningly grown-up career has been inspiring. As such, being asked to interview him for Free was a great honour. What was planned as a two-pint trip to the pub armed with a dictaphone, turned into a deep three-hour conversation between Dale, our mutual friend and master lensman Josh Hallett and I about imposter syndrome, signing NDAs and the crucial importance of changing your mounting hardware at least once a month. The resulting unconventional conversation (by skateboard magazine standards at least) awaits you all below. Sadly, there wasn’t enough room to include ruminations on the importance of always having spare wheel nuts on your person nor why it’s absolute idiocy to ride the same truck bolts for over a year but, you can’t have everything, can you?
Interview by Ben Powell
What’s the average starting salary for the job you do Dale? How much could you be earning?
Dale Starkie: I’ve seen salaries for full-time versions of my role advertised at between £50k and £60k a year.
Given that, why the hell do you still want to be a sponsored skateboarder?
(Laughing) Fair question. I just genuinely love skating: it’s all I’ve dreamed of doing since I was a little kid. I started skating around the age of 10 but I had absolutely no idea what it was. I thought the best thing you could do was stand on it and go down a hill.
Ollie, Leeds. Ph. Reece Leung
Were you in Leeds for any of the crazy demos with hundreds of people in the early 2000s? Adio with Tony Hawk, Girl team, peak Flip team, etc.?
No, that was all before my time. I only found out that Leeds was that kind of a skate destination after that era had ended.
You came up in a scene where people like Mike Wright and Tom Harrison were sponsored and although they weren’t getting paid, they were going on trips to Barcelona regularly, going on brand tours – that had to make it seem enticing to a 15-year-old, surely?
Oh yeah, I looked up to Mike Wright, Manhead, Tom Harrison and all that older generation who were the main heads in Leeds. They all had shoe sponsors, they were in mags and videos, Manhead had energy drink stickers on his board – I wanted that too. I was 15, of course I did. I was in awe of it to be honest, even though I didn’t know what ‘sponsored’ meant – it just looked cool as fuck to me (laughing).
Generationally-speaking, you came up after the financial crash of 2008, which meant that a lot of the opportunities that the generation of Leeds skaters before you had access to were gone by the time you were getting recognised.
I guess I did miss out on all the experiences that were standard for the previous generation. I didn’t go on a skate trip where a brand paid for everything until I was in my mid-20s, maybe 25…
Josh Hallett: Nah, bollocks…
No seriously, I swear, the first proper paid for skate trip I ever went on was probably a New Balance one.
Hippy jump, Zürich. Ph. Sam Ashley
Did that reality not discourage you from chasing sponsorship?
I didn’t know any better and nobody I knew was doing those things, so it was never really in my mind. I didn’t know that sponsors paid for you to go away and film at that point – I was very naive. I’d never thought of it before you just brought that up if I’m honest.
How come you still wanted to skate at a high level and hurt yourself when the rewards were not forthcoming?
I’ve always loved working on projects, that and conquering things that scare me. Up until I filmed the Welcome 2: Hell part I was purely motivated by personal satisfaction. It was only after that part came out that New Balance approached me and some of the opportunities that you’re saying I missed out on started to seem a bit more realistic.
When I watch you filming, I do sometimes find myself questioning whether you’re enjoying it. Am I seeing something that’s not there?
I think all skaters go through this, I don’t feel like I’m ‘gifted’ or ‘naturally good’ – if I want to be good (whatever that means) then I have to try very hard and with that comes frustration and self-loathing and all the stuff you’re referring to. It doesn’t mean I’m not enjoying it, sometimes you have to struggle to get what you want.
I remember talking to you during the filming of Welcome 2: Hell and you saying that it was going to be the last video part you ever filmed.
Yeah, I did say that, and I meant it, at the time at least. When we were working on that Welcome project, I couldn’t really see myself putting that much effort into another one just because University was coming to an end and I wouldn’t have the time.
Backside kickflip to fakie, London. Ph. Sam Ashley
You told me in the car on the way here that you’ve got lists relating to this interview: lists of tricks you’ve done, lists of tricks you want to do, lists of tricks you’ve done but want to replace because you don’t think they’ll sit well in Free. This is quite a strategic approach, isn’t it?
I like to do that because it keeps me on a track of ‘I’m doing alright’, you know? When you’re working on a video project over a long time and you don’t have a list, it can be hard for me to feel like I’m achieving anything. You know how it is – you’ll do a trick that might have taken hours, you’re sweaty, knackered and you might watch it through the viewfinder once and then not see it for a year. The lists help me keep track.
Are you like this all the time?
Kind of, I’ve had to learn how to approach skating on trips because it isn’t something I grew up doing. I’d much rather skate a spot with everyone these days than drag people to a spot I want to skate on my own. But I still do that now and again, haha.
Didn’t you have your London cool guy audition around this time too?
(Laughing) You’re not baiting me into talking shit. Basically, there’s a reason why I’ve stayed in Leeds. There are many factors, but Welcome Skate Store is the biggest one. I’m very proud to be a part of the Leeds skate scene and in some respects maybe that hampered my chances to access opportunities until recently. My initial aspiration in terms of sponsorship was to ride for the shop in the city I lived in, that meant more to me than anything. That was my first ‘cool guy pass’ I suppose.
Stop avoiding the question Dale, tell me about this London audition…
(Laughing) Filming with Quentin (Guthrie) in London is what you’re talking about I guess, I didn’t know what I was expecting. Q is very particular and intimidating in a way but filming with him felt natural. He invited me back a few times and that experience just made going to London seem less hectic. Without Q I don’t think I would’ve ventured out of Leeds much. It’s not that I don’t want to go to London, but it can be overwhelming – getting the tube everywhere, not knowing where the spots are or what the environment is going to be at each spot. Quentin helped me get past that. After a few visits, I was fine, and I owe that to him.
Bump to bank ollie, London. Ph. Sam Ashley
Did that help propel you onwards in terms of sponsorship?
Going to London had always been an afterthought when I was younger because there’s so much up North spot-wise and a whole skate media infrastructure here. With that said, skating and filming in London brings a career advantage to you that nowhere else in the UK does. That’s undeniable.
Mark Baines set the Quentin filming thing up too, right? He’s played a big part in your progression, hasn’t he?
Yeah, we’ve got a funny relationship Mark and I. Almost like the older brother dynamic. He’s been everywhere and done everything already, so he’s got a lot of skate wisdom. He reached out to me early on into the New Balance thing and offered to pay my train fare to London to meet up with Q, which is something nobody had ever done for me before, so obviously I’m going to take that opportunity and be serious about it. He has really helped me. I love when he comes on trips because we razz each other constantly and I love it.
As someone born and bred in Leeds, who grew up skating here and who lives in the Hyde Park area – how crazy was it to see yourself on a 20-foot wide billboard advertising the Welcome New Balance shoe?
Surreal man. My family all came to see it too. That’s all down to Welcome again really – the unsung heroes on that one are Tom (Brown) and Sam (Barratt). I knew we were doing a collab’ shoe but I had no idea that there would be a massive skate photo of me on a billboard next to the skatepark and down the road from my house. If I’d left Leeds, then maybe things like that would’ve never happened for me.
Okay, we’ve skirted around this, can you tell us exactly what it was you studied at university?
I did a degree in Project Management.
Pivot to fakie, Leeds. Ph. Reece Leung
Didn’t you win an award for being the best student?
(Laughing) Yeah, I got SOTY (Student of the Year) for getting the highest marks and various other achievements. It’s an award that’s external to the Uni and comes from an organisation working in that field.
Is this why you walked into a proper job straight after graduating?
Yeah, it contributed to it. I got a scholarship whilst I was there as well, which paid for some of my tuition.
Is there a connection to this world of work in your family?
Not really. I got an apprenticeship as a bricklayer at 17 from the company my dad was working for. I was mainly renovating derelict buildings with my dad that the company would buy to turn into flats.
That’s quite a heavy thing to be doing at 17.
I suppose so. At this point I just needed to work and earn money. I did that for three years until I was 21 – laying bricks all day then skating as much as I could after work or on the weekends. I broke my leg around this time as well, which is maybe where a lot of my self-doubt about becoming a sponsored skateboarder came from.
How so?
I broke my leg skating and turned up for work on the Monday, I was useless to my boss. Nobody’s laying bricks with a full leg cast, are they? The dude was a total cock about it too, he just looked at me and said, “If this happens again, I’ll fire you on the spot.” That’s where a lot of my madness and self-doubt came from because as much as I wanted to pursue skating, I needed to earn money to live.
Backside nollie 180 kickflip, Greifensee. Ph. Sam Ashley
Were there any positive sides to it?
Sort of. It taught me a lot of practical skills like plumbing, reading detailed plans and basic electrical work so I’m always helping my friends with those tasks. But I remember thinking, ‘fuck me, is this my life?’ I wasn’t even earning good money because the boss had me on an apprentice wage. I spoke to him, and I said how I wanted to go to Uni, and he basically just told me, “Go on then, fuck off”, so I did (laughs). It did make me more determined to prove him wrong though, which ended up working in my favour.
How old were you when you applied for Uni?
I was 21 without the higher-level qualifications that most students already had, so everywhere I applied to knocked me back at first. At 21 I went back to college first so that I’d be able to get into Uni.
Did wanting to skate have a hand in this decision?
Of course: all I’d done since leaving school were hard manual labour jobs so my time to go skate was limited, plus the fear of getting injured interfered with it. Becoming a student wasn’t just a way to better my situation and prospects, it also meant freedom that I’d never had to go out skating.
Didn’t you fix the handrail that’s in this interview? Tell that story.
I found this triple kink rail in a housing estate that looked good, but the rail was too wobbly to skate. I went in full hi-vis clothes dressed like I worked for the council, took the bolts out that held the rail into place and replaced them with longer ones, hoping that it would make it more stable.
Backside 50-50, Leeds. Ph. Reece Leung
Did you do this on your own?
Yeah, the longer bolts made it slightly better but not good enough to skate. At this point I was invested in skating it so I worked out that the only way I could ‘fix it’ was to completely remove the handrail, redrill into the concrete and then reattach the rail into these new holes. I borrowed all the tools, worked out the optimum length of bolts to do the job and then went back dressed legit as a council worker and fixed it up. The funniest aspect to that whole story was when we went back to shoot the photo and one of the residents was leaning out of the window shouting at us. “The council have just fixed that! You’re going to damage it!” Completely oblivious to that fact that it was me who they’d seen fixing it earlier that week (laughing).
What is Project Management? What do you do at work?
All projects go through life cycles. I fit into that cycle as a consultant who gets brought in when the projects are struggling. It’s my job to work out ways to get past the obstacles that are slowing projects down and to come up with ways to hit deadlines.
When I phoned you up the other day you were working on a project that you’re not allowed to talk about, right?
I often sign NDAs (Non-Disclosure Agreements), so I am not contractually allowed to talk about what I’m doing. All I can tell you is that I’m currently working in the Defence sector. I have to pre-book my attendance in offices, prove who I am before I’m allowed anywhere near the building and then when I’m in the building I can’t just go wherever I want, there are access codes and rules about who I can speak to. It can be intense.
Backside 180 into the bank, London. Ph. Sam Ashley
Can you say who you work for?
I work for a company called Costain and then I get rented out to other companies. I’ve worked for Network Rail and other big infrastructure firms.
This is something to be proud of Dale.
Just not being a bricklayer anymore is enough for me. A lot of companies like their employees to bring some kind of ‘added value’ if you like and I guess on some level, name-checking my employer in a magazine as big as Free is kind of a positive. I can’t imagine there will be that many other Project Managers reading this but who knows?
Was there a point where you were maybe faced with the dilemma of picking one over the other: skating or a real career?
I’ve been lucky because they allowed me to work part time. I might have been in a position where I would’ve had to quit if we hadn’t worked that out because I wasn’t prepared to let the sponsorship opportunities get away. I’m quite fortunate to do both and still have the pathway for a conventional career once I’m older. I put a lot of work into both things so it’s gratifying that it’s paid off. I cannot thank the company enough for understanding how important skating is to me and how pursuing the path I’m on now is a dream come true.
You’re setting an example for other skaters Dale, that it’s okay to want to be a grown up with a career but also still push skateboarding as far as you can.
I suppose so. I hope that is the case and that other people will see it like that. The way I was brought up in skateboarding and the era that I’m from as we’ve discussed, I just never conceived of it being possible to make any money from it. That’s the reason I’ve had a job the majority of my life…
Ride-on 50-50, Warsaw. Ph. Sam Ashley
You’re working-class, you didn’t have a choice but to do that.
My upbringing was based around the idea that if you don’t have a job then you’re nothing. It was hammered into me from a really young age that if you can’t get a job and keep it then you’re fucked. Nobody is going to hold your hand for you – you have to be responsible for yourself.
That mindset must feed into everything else as well, right?
Skateboarding and Project Management are much closer than you might think. A good example of that is the risk analysis that’s a crucial part of my work life: that exists in my skate life as well. I’m going to do a trick; what’s the risk involved; is it worth it; when do I need to do it by; will the video project have a positive end-result that justifies the work put into it, etc. I explain it to my colleagues like that: every time I go out to film a trick, I’m practising the methodology that we use in Project Management. There’s a thing called ‘risk-to-value’ whereby you work out if the financial risk of taking on a project is justifiable in terms of the value of the outcome.
You’ve mentioned suffering from imposter syndrome before – do you feel like an imposter in the field you work in or in the sponsored skater world?
I get it in both worlds, but I’d say more in the sponsored skater world because I really care about it. I know it’s irrational but the more I travel and the more I’m seeing how good everyone is, the more I start asking myself what the hell I’m doing there.
Your sponsors aren’t torturing you – you’re doing that to yourself…
I’m aware of that. Maybe I do need that to motivate me to some extent. I’m new to proper sponsorship, it only started around two years ago so I’m still dealing with the responsibility and pressure that brings. I just don’t want it to end.
Fakie ollie, Barnsley. Ph. Reece Leung
That will only happen if you stop working hard though.
I know but that thought scares me, I just want to keep travelling with my friends and to skate all the time. Let’s be honest, it came late in life for me, I’m 30 now so I need to be realistic, but I just love doing it so much. That’s where the fear comes from. I must give a shout out to Fraser (Doughty) for his help here – he’s been an important sounding board for me. He said to me that “comparison is the killer of joy” and that still resonates. I’m trying not to compare myself to other people anymore.
Josh Hallett: We haven’t mentioned your girlfriend Connie [Gascoyne], she is also a talented skater who has got a serious, grown-up job (a veterinarian) like you – that’s got to be a good thing…
Connie is amazing. Having her in my life is the best thing that has ever happened to me. She skates and she’s involved in the media side of it too. She’s so supportive of me… I’m getting emotional talking about her because of how much she means to me. We’re lucky in Leeds that there are quite a few couples who skate together and who hype each other up – that’s probably not as common as we assume it is. She’s an amazing person but I can pass on the behind-the-scenes vet training videos, seeing your partner with her hand up a cow’s backside is not for everyone (laughing).
